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moni

DNA- grey area?

I gather most of you have read/heard about the child that drowned in an Ottawa backyard pool. Apparently it was a daycare provider's home and she had 3 or 4 other providers that came for a playdate/swimming date, and there were 22 (!) kids in the backyard at the time. The child that died was NOT one of the home owner's daycare kids, it belonged to one of the visiting providers.

Now people are saying that that was against the DNA, as only 5 are allowed per providers home at any one time.

Since this was a playdate though, and these kids were not regularly cared for by this provider, is it really against the DNA?? Does that mean we cannot visit each other?

What do you think?

http://www.ottawasun.com/news/ottawa/2010/07/28/14852316.html

edited to add link
On a side note, I doubt this provider had daycare insurance, any one here have a pool and was able to find an insurance provider? I know I was asked when I was looking for daycare insurance, and they would not have insured me with a pool.
Lisa

I do have a pool and have daycare insurance.  Its through Economical, but, I pay alot more than anyone else here does, and my pool is an above ground, and gated off.  We never go in the backyard.  We have a side yard play area.
amandac

I cannot fathom that it is against DNA... But I don't know much about DNA. I do playdates, and honestly, to say that providers need to work in total and complete isolation from their peers just does not sound like a good idea to me!!

That said, I cannot wrap my head about having 22 kids around a pool!! What a tragic outcome!

As for insurance, I'll let those with a pool speak for themselves, but I know of at least one other provider that does have a pool and found insurance...
moni

I know, I cannot fathom 22 kids either. At the wading pool at the park there are hardly ever more than 15 and that is a lot!
ontprovider

I am sure it is just sickening for all involved. The house owner was the one giving CPR not his own provider. Accidents happen. There seem to be lots of unanswered questions: was he wearing a life jacket, how many was his care giver caring for, what were the ages of the other children, did the parents give permission for the outing, who was watching the kids, etc?

I don't think it is a violation of the DNA unless that care giver had more than 5.

Just lack of judgement and a sad story.
gepplay

How sad.
My3Sons

I'm not sure on this one.  I know I had the same concerns when I was a home provider and did not do playdates at my home or go to playdates as a regular part of the program.  I went once to Gerri's and did find it overwhelming the # of kids there.  My own comfort level.  I had Maryann over with her 2 dcg's a few times but I also didn't have 5 kids in care either.

I tend to err on the side of caution and in this case, I feel ALL the providers lacked good judgement in bringing that many kids to another person's pool.  I personally wouldn't allow my kids to go on a daycare playdate in a pool like that.  You all know I generally didn't drive dck's or allow my kids to be driven either.  Accidents do happen but I'd rather lessen the risks.

I was one of the people that had insurance with our blow-up pool as well.  Also Economical or maybe Dominion.(can't remember as we've had a few different providers in the last 10 years!)

Either way, this is tragic for everyone involved!!!
canbritmummy

Too upsetting to even comment on this one.  The child who drowned, his mother was due to have a new baby and go on maternity leave in a couple of months.  Unbelievable tragedy.  
My3Sons

I can tell you that in centre care, you cannot bring another class/centre into the room for playtime and go over your ratio: space numbers.  This also applies to the playground area.  I would assume from working with Wee Watch that the same applies if you are licensed for home care.  I vaguely remember them talking about it but it was a long time ago now.

We know the same regulations/guidelines do not always apply to unlicensed care.
amandac

My3Sons wrote:
I can tell you that in centre care, you cannot bring another class/centre into the room for playtime and go over your ratio: space numbers.  This also applies to the playground area.  I would assume from working with Wee Watch that the same applies if you are licensed for home care.  I vaguely remember them talking about it but it was a long time ago now.

We know the same regulations/guidelines do not always apply to unlicensed care.


It makes sense in centre based care though. More children in the room is not going to bring any more value to the table. They are in groups already that are varried enough to form friendships / work on socialization, they are not going to gain any new experiances, the teachers are not going to benifit much either, they already have a fantastic support system (you hope anyway) and have a great forum for exchanging thoughts / ideas / dialog...

For a lot of home daycares, providing an outing to another providers may be one of the few times that a child gets to bump elbows with another child their age, or more then one other child their age, they have to learn about sharing and interacting in a larger environment, they benefit from perhaps joining in programing that the other provider is offering that maybe their provider did not think of, like a neat craft or toy or game.... In turn the providers get to exchange ideas, have their thoughts and feelings heard by someone who understands, get a second opinion perhaps on a childs development (is XX's behavior normal??).

I can understand the chaos of having 8 or more kids in the same space as being overwhelming for some, and I would NEVER EVER recommend 22 kids in the average home or backyard at ANY time, but honestly, for an hour or so, provided normal safety precautions are taken I don't see the harm in in it, and using this as an excuse to prohibit a playdate I think would be a very sad thing....

Never in a million years do I think ANY home daycare should be bringing children out in a pool environment. My new boys mother told me he is a pretty good swimmer but asked for a lifejacket if we go in a pool beyond a wading pool, I told her there was no way I would be bringing the children swimming like that, it is beyond my comfort level (she had a pool party at a rec centre for her DS's B day a few months back that my DS was invited too). I DO NOT allow my children to go swimming in their friends pool down the street without my husband or me present. I saw first hand how even 10 inches of water is enough for a small child to drown in as my DCB slipped under the water once, and another time his cousin tried to grab his head and force it under water. I put a chair just about IN my pool when I am watching them, and usually have my feet in the water!!

My heart brakes for this family and all involved. I am sure this is going to lead to some sort of lawsuit or charges, and the DNA will definitely be clarified on this point....

I know it is not within the scope of the DNA, but I know my sons JK/SK teacher used to sometimes double up with the other JK/SK class.... Also she once took in a group of Grade 4s... And I must admit, seeing the daycamps at ching today was "interesting" as it always is when the bus pulls up to Gage and they get out. I know these kids are a little older, although some looked to be younger then my DS (6). total chaos in my opinion....
sealorry

In my old house I had a large inground pool and was insured by Dominion. The original policy to include daycare would have dated back thirteen years and I don't recall any issues about daycare and pool. they were probably less vigilant then.
However my dcks were never ever allowed in the pool area of the back yard. I had a separate fenced play area. I am not comfortable with little kids and pool as I am not a great swimmer and would hate to be put in a situation where I could not save a child. I enrolled my own DSs in swimming lessons as toddlers and they are all excellent swimmers. They grew up at the cottage where it's pretty hard to gate off the lake, LOL so wore life jackets when they were litlle all the time they were outside.
I enjoy play dates and find them beneficial to both providers and children. This is an isolating job and and an outing can make the difference between keeping your sanity at times.
Vigilance on the part of the provider is necessary whether at home, in another provider's backyard or at a splash pad that's near a road (as MA brought up in another post). When I have both my one year olds I know that Gage Park is not a good outing for us as there are just too many kids and the wading pool. Safety of the children always comes first.
sbuch

I know what everyone is saying and most I agree with yes 22 is to much around a pool but if you are watching carfully and rioght there at the pool I see no reason for not doing a playdate I have a blow up pool and I am no futher from it then sitting in it with the children or I am right beside it life jackes are used and I also have the baby in a blowup sit thing she loves it and I am always walking around the pool with them.  But I am not a beliver in the 5 child rule I think we need to bump that to 6 that way you do not have one sitting out by themselves, the Government does not tel us how many childern we are alow to give birth too and I don't think they should be telling us that 5 is enough but this rule has been in for so long that I do abid by it but I am not happy about it poor little DCB is always alone the other do not want to play with her because she is so little so I spend more time with her then the others because the others have made they playmates and do their own play things its kind of sad DCB trys now to play with them she is 1 now and is on the move but the other move away from her I want to bring in a child the same age so she has playmate but I know that I am not allowed because of the 5 kid rule it kind of ticks me off. I know that my house and I can handle one more 5 children what is the difference between having  5 DCkids in care plus 3 or 4 of your own? nothing at all other then you have your kids still there. I have writen to the Gov about this many time and so far all I have ever gotten back is the standard sorry about the incovincanes and the law sent back to me. I will tell you if I ever get the chance to speak to them in person they will get an ear full.

It is a sad thing for this to happen but as far as I am concerned yes accidents happen but they where not watching carfuly enough I count the head every couple of mins when we are outside or in the pool or even out for a walk
moni

Sharon, I think most of us see play dates as a good thing. I worry that incidents like this will make them change/clarify the rules to not allow play dates at all.

I also agree that the numbers (whatever number they pick) should include one's own kids (below school aged) for it to be fair.
sbuch

moni wrote:
Sharon, I think most of us see play dates as a good thing. I worry that incidents like this will make them change/clarify the rules to not allow play dates at all.

I also agree that the numbers (whatever number they pick) should include one's own kids (below school aged) for it to be fair.


I hope that they do not change that rule
amandac

I worry if a push is made to include your own kids, it is going to be to cap it at 5 including your own.... But I do agree that they need to pick a number and include Under Grade 1's... If they include under 10's, that is just going to suck...

I am finding it interesting that this year I am really going to feel short a head, not having my son around from 8-4 most of the time... While I will miss him like crazy, I will love the lighter load!!  

I like the idea of a regulated childcare system, where all home daycare providers need to have basic things like safety and fire inspections done, have certain qualifications like CPR etc, but otherwise have the choice to work with an agency or not if they want to watch more then a couple of children on a regular basis. If they pass inspections / have qualifications, and enough physical space, then perhaps they could take on a few more heads. This makes sense to me, but in practicality, maybe it would be a logistical nightmare...
sbuch

amandac wrote:
I worry if a push is made to include your own kids, it is going to be to cap it at 5 including your own.... But I do agree that they need to pick a number and include Under Grade 1's... If they include under 10's, that is just going to suck...

I am finding it interesting that this year I am really going to feel short a head, not having my son around from 8-4 most of the time... While I will miss him like crazy, I will love the lighter load!!  

I like the idea of a regulated childcare system, where all home daycare providers need to have basic things like safety and fire inspections done, have certain qualifications like CPR etc, but otherwise have the choice to work with an agency or not if they want to watch more then a couple of children on a regular basis. If they pass inspections / have qualifications, and enough physical space, then perhaps they could take on a few more heads. This makes sense to me, but in practicality, maybe it would be a logistical nightmare...


I do not think that we need to be inspected for safty and fire inspection I had it inspected a while back and all of my stuff is up to date but my stair well acording to wee watch they wnated me to make the slats in it smaller so that a child could not get its head stuck I can put my head in it and I do not get stuck and my dog goes through the slats to get upstairs because like a good care provider I have a gate on the stairs so that the children don't play on the stairs. They wnated me to put a 4 foot fence around my wood stiove so the children cannot reach it they are not in that room that is why it is gated off they wanted my momther whop is sick and is 73 to smoke out on the street not in the garage where everyone who comes smokes they also wanted me to fix my fence that is on a bit of a lean so that the children don't fall through it yet a tree fell on it last summer and it with stood that I feel that if they want to put all these restriction on us then they need to do with parents who have small children sorry but sometime the rules suck and that is why I did not go with a lience daycare I feel that if my parents feel it is safe and I know that it is safe then back off. I got into this to make life easier for the parents and to take care of children not to be dictateted to. I feel I have a fun safe enviormrement and so do my parents. I have a fire route writen up on how to get the children out incase of fire I have extiguisors on the walls in good reach, I have life jackets and gates everywhere that here is even a potentioal risk, I have plug bloockets on and I have very happy children and happy parents what more could they ask for. and they take part of my money so no thankyou I do not wnat to be involed with any part of licenening. sorry I am venting
amandac

sbuch wrote:
amandac wrote:


I like the idea of a regulated childcare system, where all home daycare providers need to have basic things like safety and fire inspections done, have certain qualifications like CPR etc, but otherwise have the choice to work with an agency or not if they want to watch more then a couple of children on a regular basis. If they pass inspections / have qualifications, and enough physical space, then perhaps they could take on a few more heads. This makes sense to me, but in practicality, maybe it would be a logistical nightmare...


I do not think that we need to be inspected for safty and fire inspection I had it inspected a while back and all of my stuff is up to date but my stair well acording to wee watch they wnated me to make the slats in it smaller so that a child could not get its head stuck I can put my head in it and I do not get stuck and my dog goes through the slats to get upstairs because like a good care provider I have a gate on the stairs so that the children don't play on the stairs. They wnated me to put a 4 foot fence around my wood stiove so the children cannot reach it they are not in that room that is why it is gated off they wanted my momther whop is sick and is 73 to smoke out on the street not in the garage where everyone who comes smokes they also wanted me to fix my fence that is on a bit of a lean so that the children don't fall through it yet a tree fell on it last summer and it with stood that I feel that if they want to put all these restriction on us then they need to do with parents who have small children sorry but sometime the rules suck and that is why I did not go with a lience daycare I feel that if my parents feel it is safe and I know that it is safe then back off. I got into this to make life easier for the parents and to take care of children not to be dictateted to. I feel I have a fun safe enviormrement and so do my parents. I have a fire route writen up on how to get the children out incase of fire I have extiguisors on the walls in good reach, I have life jackets and gates everywhere that here is even a potentioal risk, I have plug bloockets on and I have very happy children and happy parents what more could they ask for. and they take part of my money so no thankyou I do not wnat to be involed with any part of licenening. sorry I am venting


And I think that is what I meant about starting a logistical nightmare, the actual defining of what is safe and what is not... Afterall we are all operating out of homes, not daycare centres... And the "perfect" home is nearly impossible, everyone has things built and maintained to different standards and tastes...

Having someone else decide what is safe and what is not, what is code and what is not, what is acceptable, and what is not is not an easy task, possibly not feasible at all. And at the end of  the day, such moves could move daycare fees upward as a provider needs to recoup these costs.

Things like pets, cleanliness and smoking are all very subjective. I hear you on the fireplace if the kids are not around it, as I have one too, but I keep it off during daytime hours. Should I gate it anyway?

Still... I see merrit to to the idea if taking care of large numbers of children... Some houses have the capacity to take care of more then 5, others probably should not take care of that many. If you had a large home that could comfortably take care of more then 5 (not sure my house is even big enough for that) then maybe you could look at hiring someone to help, and take advantage of 2 sets of eyes and ears and hands, as opposed to operating in isolation...
sbuch

amandac wrote:
sbuch wrote:
amandac wrote:


I like the idea of a regulated childcare system, where all home daycare providers need to have basic things like safety and fire inspections done, have certain qualifications like CPR etc, but otherwise have the choice to work with an agency or not if they want to watch more then a couple of children on a regular basis. If they pass inspections / have qualifications, and enough physical space, then perhaps they could take on a few more heads. This makes sense to me, but in practicality, maybe it would be a logistical nightmare...


I do not think that we need to be inspected for safty and fire inspection I had it inspected a while back and all of my stuff is up to date but my stair well acording to wee watch they wnated me to make the slats in it smaller so that a child could not get its head stuck I can put my head in it and I do not get stuck and my dog goes through the slats to get upstairs because like a good care provider I have a gate on the stairs so that the children don't play on the stairs. They wnated me to put a 4 foot fence around my wood stiove so the children cannot reach it they are not in that room that is why it is gated off they wanted my momther whop is sick and is 73 to smoke out on the street not in the garage where everyone who comes smokes they also wanted me to fix my fence that is on a bit of a lean so that the children don't fall through it yet a tree fell on it last summer and it with stood that I feel that if they want to put all these restriction on us then they need to do with parents who have small children sorry but sometime the rules suck and that is why I did not go with a lience daycare I feel that if my parents feel it is safe and I know that it is safe then back off. I got into this to make life easier for the parents and to take care of children not to be dictateted to. I feel I have a fun safe enviormrement and so do my parents. I have a fire route writen up on how to get the children out incase of fire I have extiguisors on the walls in good reach, I have life jackets and gates everywhere that here is even a potentioal risk, I have plug bloockets on and I have very happy children and happy parents what more could they ask for. and they take part of my money so no thankyou I do not wnat to be involed with any part of licenening. sorry I am venting


And I think that is what I meant about starting a logistical nightmare, the actual defining of what is safe and what is not... Afterall we are all operating out of homes, not daycare centres... And the "perfect" home is nearly impossible, everyone has things built and maintained to different standards and tastes...

Having someone else decide what is safe and what is not, what is code and what is not, what is acceptable, and what is not is not an easy task, possibly not feasible at all. And at the end of  the day, such moves could move daycare fees upward as a provider needs to recoup these costs.

Things like pets, cleanliness and smoking are all very subjective. I hear you on the fireplace if the kids are not around it, as I have one too, but I keep it off during daytime hours. Should I gate it anyway?

Still... I see merrit to to the idea if taking care of large numbers of children... Some houses have the capacity to take care of more then 5, others probably should not take care of that many. If you had a large home that could comfortably take care of more then 5 (not sure my house is even big enough for that) then maybe you could look at hiring someone to help, and take advantage of 2 sets of eyes and ears and hands, as opposed to operating in isolation...


I agree but I would want to take on a co-op student from the high school as they need the experiance and the hours but I won't do it for just 5 there is sometimes not enough for me to do let alone someone else.  helping.
ontprovider

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/Dayc...laws+confusing/3345471/story.html
sbuch

this whole thing is completly frustrating we a the providers we no what we can handle and what we cannot we know what our children can handle and what they cannot, we are her 5 days aweek up to 9 hours if the home care provider know that her children can handle an extra child or another daycare visting then why not, what happen was a tradgy, but I have a feeloing that this is going to come back and bite us in the ass. I can see it. someway somehow the govenernment is going to try and get their hooks in the unlicened daycare. I know from experiance I can handle six children inmy care I have done when my daughter was youger I have had a few times where I have had an overlap when I first opened that we did fine and everyone was happy and secure. But I do not believe in these daycares that have 7,8,9,10 even if they have help you wnat to do that then open a lieciened daycare and have a proper property for it. but to limit us to 5 sucks I always have one child that is alone has no one to play with. it is so frustrating sometimes I wounder if it is worth it.

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